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Greek and Roman Religions, Fall 1999

November 18, 1999


WEEKLY ASSIGNMENT DUE TODAY: Read Burkert Section VII, Philosophical Religion:   pp. 305-337 

Read  Xenophanes' fragments, in Miller:  pp. 107-111 

Read or skim Plato, Meno 80c - 86c 
This passage includes a discussion about plane geometry, but don't let that worry you if you don't like math.  You don't need to worry about the details of the geometry, since this is ultimately a discussion about religion. 

Read or skim Plato, Republic 376c - 383c. 
If you have time, you might want to read up to about 394b.  Otherwise you'll leave the discussion in the middle. 

 
 
PREPARATION:  The Burkert selection is the most important part, since it gives you an overview of the topic.  Xenophanes should be fun and easy to read (the text of the poems is short). Try to at least skim the Plato, so that you're ready for discussion. 

 
SESSION LEADER:   Come prepared to talk about Plato.  Have something to say about each of the readings, but also know a little about his biography, works, etc.  (OCD would be a good place to go for this, or if you want more detailed information on particular topics try The Cambridge Companion to Plato, ed. by Richard Kraut, 1992.)

 
 
LECTURE NOTES:

Three Hellenistic Cultures

Last week I began this lecture, but really only got through a capsule review of Greek history, to place the Hellenistic period in a historical context and to summarize the main points in it.

For an overview of Greek history, please see:  Chronology of Greece, Rome, Iran, and India

Map of India under the British  (historical maps of India are hard to find on the internet)

Map of Modern India

Map of the ancient Iranian world

This week I would like to problematize the notion of 'Hellenistic' a little, and consider the role that the Hellenistic period should play in an overview of comparative ancient history.  The upshot of this inquiry will be a re-examination of the relation between indigenous Greek and Roman elements in the evolution of Roman religious history.

Iranian and Indian history.

Problems with chronology throughout.

India:

Death (parinirvana) of Buddha:  544, 486, or 483, of which let's take the second.   (Death of Mahavira c. 468)

Mauryan Empire:  324-184
 

Chandragupta:  324-300
Ashoka:  269-232
Iran:
Some major elements of ancient Iran:  Media, Persia, Parthia

Median Empire:  eighth to sixth centuries?

Achaemenid Empire:  550-330

Seleucid Empire:  312-?first century BC?

Sasanian Empire:  A.D. 224 - 651
 
Synchronisms with the classical world.
Reforms of Cleisthenes:  508 B.C.

Foundation of Roman Republic:  509 B.C.

Staging of First Play by Livius Andronicus:  240 B.C.

End of Third Punic War, Destruction of Corinth by Rome:  146 B.C.

What do we make of the Hellenistic period?

Thesis:  Rome and Seleucid-Sasanian Iran were parallel, Hellenisitic empires.  If this is fair, then there should perhaps not be a contrast between the indigenously Greek and Roman, but rather a story in which Roman history is actually part of Greek history, in the same way that Seleucid Iran is.  Both are Greek civilizations transplanted onto advanced civilizations with virtually no written, literary history.

 
 

Philosophical Critique of Traditional Religion
 

Pre-Socratic Thought
Xenophanes (see fragments in Miller)

Other Pre-Socratics who treat religion include:  Heraclitus, Parmenides, Empedocles, Anaxagoras

Problem of the origins of science with the Milesians (Thales, Anaximander, Anaximenes):  are inquiries into the basic stuff of the world (especially when they are resolutely anti-empirical) pre-scientific?

Problem of science vs. religion in Empedocles:  allegedly he wrote two books:  Peri Physeos (On Nature) and Katharmoi (Purifications), and scholars have viewed this as expressing a potential contradiction.

For further reference, begin with Kirk, G.S., Raven, J.E., and Schofield, M., The Presocratic Philosophers, Cambridge 1983 (second ed.).
 
Socrates and Anaxagoras
Anaxagoras apparently fell victim to a law passed by Diopeithes (date uncertain) intended to "impeach those who did not believe in divine matters [ta theia] or who taught stories [logous] about the heavens" (Plutarch, Pericles 32;  DK 59A17). 

Socrates committed suicide in 399, after a charge that is given in somewhat different forms; two from Plato will illustrate the issues: 

a) "Socrates is guilty of criminal meddling, in that he inquires into things below the earth and in the sky, and makes the weaker argument defeat the stronger, and teaches others to follow his example" (Apology 19b).

b)  ". . . corrupting the minds of the young, and of believing in deities of his own invention instead of the gods recognized by the state." (Apology 24b).
Plato presents Socrates as practicing Athenian cult, but thinking his own thoughts.  In contrast, he presents the Sophists as making the weaker idea seem the stronger. 
Plato 
Many different views of religion.  Some examples:

Socrates and traditional religion

The one god:  anticipating Aristotle and Christian Neo-Platonism

Pythagorian influence

The Timaeus and the Demiurge
 
Aristotle
The god becomes an impersonal presence, the only true active agent in the world.

See his Metaphysics.